This throw also exists in at least two of the oldest kata of Okinawan karate, Passai (Bassai-Dai) and Kushanku (Kanku-Dai). Those two kata are at least 300 years old minimum, so it has obviously been a common throw in Asia for a long time. No need to get it from the West.
Honestly. I think the throw grew organically throughout the world. The basic idea probably came from when people used to farm and hunt For subsistence.
I mean look at the idea of throwing a sack or body of an animal over your shoulder To carry it around.
It’s kind of a movement that you would do To move stuff around. Especially the standing version.
So developing it Into a wrestling slash judo moved. It’s just something natural. In fact I wouldn’t doubt before people really thought about the sport it was Most likely type of warfare on the regular.
Well, I would disagree. "Physical training books from other countries" is quite likely to be at least one wrestling manual. Although I would say that boxing, savate and (catch-)wrestling are martial arts, it is not a word that would have been used in the West at the time.
Quite a few martial artists are not the best historians or anthropologists, which is what this issue really falls into. Everyone needs to learn what mutual/simultaneous discovery is. Everyone with the same goals, like throwing someone, will eventually arrive at similar conclusions independently.
The common origin myth in martial arts needs to go away, or at least be limited to what’s verifiable, like Okinawans going to China to learn martial arts. That’s actually recorded. Often it devolves into low-key nationalism- “India/Greece/China/Japan invented ____ and everyone took from it without credit.”
People are always going to argue the origins of things. When I was a blue belt in BJJ, I thought I invented the double wrist lock sumi gaeahi. I was using body mechanics that people eventually figure out when they grapple.
According to Iain Aberthnethy, this kind of historical confusion is something called "the common origin myth". It's basically an absurd assumption that common methods must have a common origin. But common methods must often evolve independently due to common combative problems and common physiology. For example, the hip throw is found old-school pugilism, wrestling, Koryu Te (the old version of Karate), Pankration, Shuai Jiao and so on. The throw however did not originate in one place or one art to get exported to all other arts from there. They developed variations on the method independently.
In my experience, there is very little that is truly new in martial arts. More often than not, what is "new" is actually new to that particular group or generation of martial artists. BJJ was new to American martial artists in the 90s because a lot of the submissions and tactics of BJJ had been forgotten in western wrestling when rules sets were being introduced to make it safer for students, especially for kids in school in particular. Eventually it started to be seen as a sport and not a combative art.
Thank you for sharing this Chadi. I've often wondered, and even tried to find, what western book Kano supposedly found inspiration for kata guruma in; now I know that this question can be put to rest.
Mechanically, Kata Guruma could easily be a follow-up adaption after a failed Seoi Nage. It's not some super complicated move you'd need a long thinking process to come up with. It's basically they way you carry some incapacitated person. If you've ever been in either or both situations, it wouldn't take you some genius moment to get to the idea of Kata Guruma. This is definitely one of those throws that easily could have completely independently been found in all wrestling/grappling styles all over the world.
The Catch Wrestling influence will be down played by Kodokan because Kano's top students were beaten by a western Catch wrestler. I forget the Catch wrestlers name, but he was calling himself the world judo champion, despite not knowing judo, because he beat the best judokas. It was a highly embarrassing affair for Kano and after a certain number of defeats, he forbade, on threat of being kicked out of kodokan, his students from accept the wrestler's challenge.
Chadi while I agree with your assessment; however, many training manuals from the West(United States, Europe, and England did have passages containing proper execution of techniques as well methods of acquiring strength. Though Kata Guruma is very Japanese Kano would not have ignored the similarities of techniques. And any method to improve his physical stamina etc etc. Would be adopted by this martial pioneer. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and practical combat wisdom.
I read that story in a judo book years ago. Not sure which book has that story. The story said he was struggling to beat a bigger opponent and came across the technique. I’ll try and find it.
Kata guruma originally came from the jujitsu technique Yama Arashi (mountain storm). There are many grappling techniques that are universal. Especially when they come from weapons systems like jujutsu, wrestling (Greek pancration, Scottish wrestling, Viking glima etc…) so your more obvious throws will ultimately be discovered by everyone at some point.
Interesting! Yes, Sumo has 6 backwards body drop moves in fact, Tsutaezori, Sototasukizori, Tasukizori, Kakezori, Izori and my favorite, Shumokuzori. I don't know when these were introduced to Sumo, but Sumo is notoriously slow to change and is a very old system, Japan's oldest according many, so I wouldn't be surprised if in one way or another, that Kata Guruma is from Sumo. You don't see these moves often in pro Sumo due to the trend towards larger wrestlers over the last several decades, but in America where we have weight classes, these moves work just fine as long as you're fast enough to catch the opponents leg. We've been meaning to make a video on them but we've been so busy lately.
It’s obviously a Sumo influence. I always view wrestling as the oldest martial art. It doesn’t matter the style: Sumo, Greco, Koshti, pehlwani, Senegalese wrestling. They will all share similar techniques.
In the book "Judo Memoirs of Jigoro Kano" by Brian N. Watson, Kano says that he sought a (ex) sumotori by the name of Kisoemon Uchiyama who worked at the university were kano studied. But the sumo throws he learned with him, didn’t help. So he went to the library and looked for “western fighting styles” books were all the techniques with the exception of one, did not help him throw Fukushima. Tha technique was kata guruma.
Fukushima was no sumotori, but senpai of Kano at Fukuda’s dojo.
Various wrestling styles have existed since Stone Age. There are only so many ways to throw someone, fireman’s carry is one. It’s more likely that Kano saw it while studying western wrestling book than weightlifting or calisthenics book.
That is a nice compilation you got there. Kata guruma is my favourite technique since I am 167cm and 55kg. I believe Kano really threw the sumo wrestler with this technique. It is just so efficient for a short person in my opinion.
There are various theories. Kata Guruma was developed by improving Totsuka yoshinryu's Kinukatugi絹担. You can probably see it if you do an image search on 樊噲搦.
The oldest mention of this throw was in the Epic of Gilgamesh (written almost 2000 BCE). When Gilgamesh and Enkidu wrestle each other, Gilgamesh ends it by dropping a knee on the ground, carrying Enkidu over his shoulders, and throwing him onto the ground.
Salute Chadi , Root of thhe concept of Wining by Pinning comes from a 7000 yr old African story about a man name AKPI, humans would wrestle in the spirit world on special occasions and if your back touch the floor the lights on the floor vaporized you and took your soul. AKPI is consider an ancestor of humans thus wrestling has a huge religious significance in Africa and Canaan
Jigoro Kano couldn't beat a larger Sumo wrestler with ju jutsu, so he consulted the Western tradition to get the move that lifts the whole man? Sounds legit 😕
I think that this throw was independently invented by both him and the western wrestlers before they had any contact with each other. I think this particular move would be something that is likely to be invented by anyone who studied this type of techniques such as judo or wrestling which while different do have some overlaps and both focus lot on throws and takedowns long enough. this move is quite organic and is likely to be one of the earlier moves invented by both cultures. what I do not believe however is that 99lbs man could do this move to a sumo wrestler. but if he could please tell me how its done exactly with all details because those tiny details matter a great deal in both punching with a cross and throwing someone. but honestly its hard for me to imagine a 99lbs man doing this type of throw on someone who is a size and and abilities to resist a throw of sumo wrestler regardless if the man's background was judo jiu jitsu or wrestling.
Hace bastante tiempo atrás, en su canal manifesté que el Kata Guruma estaba en pergaminos de Artes Clásicas de Japón, incluída de JuJutsu. Y que la razón suya para escribir en ese momento que provenía de Wrestling, era el desconocimiento profundo de usted del JuJutsu y sus Pergaminos. Incluso esta técnica tiene otros nombres y varias versiones. Lo interesante es que por alguna razón desconocida , fue eliminada ese comentario de su canal. No se si fue voluntarios o no , da lo mismo eso ahora. Igual en ese momento le agradecí que informara sobre el JuJutsu dada la gran cantidad de desinformación que existe y/o Información errónea como por ejemplo que el JuJutsu viene del ChinNa Chino o que fue inventado en la India. Cosas totalemnet Leyendas pero no hechos reales e Históricos. Atte. Máximo Arias Sesnei JuJutsu 6°Dan y Shidoshi Ho Bujinkan.
A long time ago, on your channel I stated that the Kata Guruma was in scrolls of Classical Arts of Japan, including JuJutsu. And that your reason for writing at that time that you came from Wrestling was your deep ignorance of JuJutsu and its Scrolls. Even this technique has other names and several versions. The interesting thing is that for some unknown reason, that comment was removed from his channel. I don't know if it was voluntary or not, it doesn't matter now. At that time, I also thanked you for reporting on JuJutsu given the large amount of misinformation that exists , such as that JuJutsu comes from the Chinese ChinNa or that it was invented in India. totally things Legends but not real and Historical facts. Atte. Máximo Arias Sesnei JuJutsu 6th Dan and Shidoshi Ho Bujinkan.
It wouldn't be surprising for two or more cultures to independently arrive at the same technique (or something very similar). People have practiced various grappling styles all over the world since prehistoric times.
41 Comments
I really appreciate the uploads!!!
Thank you for that transparency. 🙏
Wow unthinkable💕💕💕
This throw also exists in at least two of the oldest kata of Okinawan karate, Passai (Bassai-Dai) and Kushanku (Kanku-Dai). Those two kata are at least 300 years old minimum, so it has obviously been a common throw in Asia for a long time. No need to get it from the West.
Judo’s first rule set:
https://youtu.be/WDcXDGzIrsg
Honestly. I think the throw grew organically throughout the world.
The basic idea probably came from when people used to farm and hunt For subsistence.
I mean look at the idea of throwing a sack or body of an animal over your shoulder To carry it around.
It’s kind of a movement that you would do To move stuff around. Especially the standing version.
So developing it Into a wrestling slash judo moved. It’s just something natural. In fact I wouldn’t doubt before people really thought about the sport it was Most likely type of warfare on the regular.
Jūjutsu came from Sumo Wrestling. So of course it has wrestling techniques. It’s a grappling art.
Well, I would disagree. "Physical training books from other countries" is quite likely to be at least one wrestling manual. Although I would say that boxing, savate and (catch-)wrestling are martial arts, it is not a word that would have been used in the West at the time.
Quite a few martial artists are not the best historians or anthropologists, which is what this issue really falls into. Everyone needs to learn what mutual/simultaneous discovery is. Everyone with the same goals, like throwing someone, will eventually arrive at similar conclusions independently.
The common origin myth in martial arts needs to go away, or at least be limited to what’s verifiable, like Okinawans going to China to learn martial arts. That’s actually recorded. Often it devolves into low-key nationalism- “India/Greece/China/Japan invented ____ and everyone took from it without credit.”
People are always going to argue the origins of things. When I was a blue belt in BJJ, I thought I invented the double wrist lock sumi gaeahi. I was using body mechanics that people eventually figure out when they grapple.
According to Iain Aberthnethy, this kind of historical confusion is something called "the common origin myth". It's basically an absurd assumption that common methods must have a common origin. But common methods must often evolve independently due to common combative problems and common physiology. For example, the hip throw is found old-school pugilism, wrestling, Koryu Te (the old version of Karate), Pankration, Shuai Jiao and so on. The throw however did not originate in one place or one art to get exported to all other arts from there. They developed variations on the method independently.
Са стойки страшна бросать можно и пробить. В самбо этот бросок называют мельница.
In my experience, there is very little that is truly new in martial arts. More often than not, what is "new" is actually new to that particular group or generation of martial artists. BJJ was new to American martial artists in the 90s because a lot of the submissions and tactics of BJJ had been forgotten in western wrestling when rules sets were being introduced to make it safer for students, especially for kids in school in particular. Eventually it started to be seen as a sport and not a combative art.
Thank you for sharing this Chadi. I've often wondered, and even tried to find, what western book Kano supposedly found inspiration for kata guruma in; now I know that this question can be put to rest.
They probably practiced it in ancient Greece
Mechanically, Kata Guruma could easily be a follow-up adaption after a failed Seoi Nage. It's not some super complicated move you'd need a long thinking process to come up with. It's basically they way you carry some incapacitated person. If you've ever been in either or both situations, it wouldn't take you some genius moment to get to the idea of Kata Guruma. This is definitely one of those throws that easily could have completely independently been found in all wrestling/grappling styles all over the world.
The human body can only move in certain ways, so it is reasonable that the same techniques would show up in multiple places.
The Catch Wrestling influence will be down played by Kodokan because Kano's top students were beaten by a western Catch wrestler.
I forget the Catch wrestlers name, but he was calling himself the world judo champion, despite not knowing judo, because he beat the best judokas.
It was a highly embarrassing affair for Kano and after a certain number of defeats, he forbade, on threat of being kicked out of kodokan, his students from accept the wrestler's challenge.
Of course that Sumo is the Japanese grappling father.
Shuai Jiao would be the grandfather or something
Chadi while I agree with your assessment; however, many training manuals from the West(United States, Europe, and England did have passages containing proper execution of techniques as well methods of acquiring strength. Though Kata Guruma is very Japanese Kano would not have ignored the similarities of techniques. And any method to improve his physical stamina etc etc. Would be adopted by this martial pioneer. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and practical combat wisdom.
I read that story in a judo book years ago. Not sure which book has that story. The story said he was struggling to beat a bigger opponent and came across the technique. I’ll try and find it.
Kata guruma originally came from the jujitsu technique Yama Arashi (mountain storm). There are many grappling techniques that are universal. Especially when they come from weapons systems like jujutsu, wrestling (Greek pancration, Scottish wrestling, Viking glima etc…) so your more obvious throws will ultimately be discovered by everyone at some point.
Most grappling came from India. Nothing is new under the sun.
Awesome as always Chadi! I'm a huge fan. Love your top notch work!!
Interesting! Yes, Sumo has 6 backwards body drop moves in fact, Tsutaezori, Sototasukizori, Tasukizori, Kakezori, Izori and my favorite, Shumokuzori. I don't know when these were introduced to Sumo, but Sumo is notoriously slow to change and is a very old system, Japan's oldest according many, so I wouldn't be surprised if in one way or another, that Kata Guruma is from Sumo. You don't see these moves often in pro Sumo due to the trend towards larger wrestlers over the last several decades, but in America where we have weight classes, these moves work just fine as long as you're fast enough to catch the opponents leg. We've been meaning to make a video on them but we've been so busy lately.
It’s obviously a Sumo influence. I always view wrestling as the oldest martial art. It doesn’t matter the style: Sumo, Greco, Koshti, pehlwani, Senegalese wrestling. They will all share similar techniques.
In the book "Judo Memoirs of Jigoro Kano" by Brian N. Watson, Kano says that he sought a (ex) sumotori by the name of Kisoemon Uchiyama who worked at the university were kano studied. But the sumo throws he learned with him, didn’t help. So he went to the library and looked for “western fighting styles” books were all the techniques with the exception of one, did not help him throw Fukushima. Tha technique was kata guruma.
Fukushima was no sumotori, but senpai of Kano at Fukuda’s dojo.
Various wrestling styles have existed since Stone Age. There are only so many ways to throw someone, fireman’s carry is one. It’s more likely that Kano saw it while studying western wrestling book than weightlifting or calisthenics book.
Various wrestling styles have existed since Stone Age. There are only so many ways to throw someone, fireman’s carry is one.
To me this almost looks more like the move used in the Taco Bell fight, more than–what was the verdict? Sukuinage?
That is a nice compilation you got there. Kata guruma is my favourite technique since I am 167cm and 55kg. I believe Kano really threw the sumo wrestler with this technique. It is just so efficient for a short person in my opinion.
There are various theories. Kata Guruma was developed by improving Totsuka yoshinryu's Kinukatugi絹担. You can probably see it if you do an image search on 樊噲搦.
The oldest mention of this throw was in the Epic of Gilgamesh (written almost 2000 BCE). When Gilgamesh and Enkidu wrestle each other, Gilgamesh ends it by dropping a knee on the ground, carrying Enkidu over his shoulders, and throwing him onto the ground.
There are historical references to this throw going all the way back to ancient Greece in Rome. It's also in Tai chi forms
Salute Chadi , Root of thhe concept of Wining by Pinning comes from a 7000 yr old African story about a man name AKPI, humans would wrestle in the spirit world on special occasions and if your back touch the floor the lights on the floor vaporized you and took your soul. AKPI is consider an ancestor of humans thus wrestling has a huge religious significance in Africa and Canaan
there are always similar techniques that evolve independently that may then later on influence one another, nothing new under the sun
Jigoro Kano couldn't beat a larger Sumo wrestler with ju jutsu, so he consulted the Western tradition to get the move that lifts the whole man? Sounds legit 😕
I think that this throw was independently invented by both him and the western wrestlers before they had any contact with each other. I think this particular move would be something that is likely to be invented by anyone who studied this type of techniques such as judo or wrestling which while different do have some overlaps and both focus lot on throws and takedowns long enough. this move is quite organic and is likely to be one of the earlier moves invented by both cultures. what I do not believe however is that 99lbs man could do this move to a sumo wrestler. but if he could please tell me how its done exactly with all details because those tiny details matter a great deal in both punching with a cross and throwing someone. but honestly its hard for me to imagine a 99lbs man doing this type of throw on someone who is a size and and abilities to resist a throw of sumo wrestler regardless if the man's background was judo jiu jitsu or wrestling.
Hace bastante tiempo atrás, en su canal manifesté que el Kata Guruma estaba en pergaminos de Artes Clásicas de Japón, incluída de JuJutsu. Y que la razón suya para escribir en ese momento que provenía de Wrestling, era el desconocimiento profundo de usted del JuJutsu y sus Pergaminos. Incluso esta técnica tiene otros nombres y varias versiones. Lo interesante es que por alguna razón desconocida , fue eliminada ese comentario de su canal. No se si fue voluntarios o no , da lo mismo eso ahora. Igual en ese momento le agradecí que informara sobre el JuJutsu dada la gran cantidad de desinformación que existe y/o Información errónea como por ejemplo que el JuJutsu viene del ChinNa Chino o que fue inventado en la India. Cosas totalemnet Leyendas pero no hechos reales e Históricos. Atte. Máximo Arias Sesnei JuJutsu 6°Dan y Shidoshi Ho Bujinkan.
A long time ago, on your channel I stated that the Kata Guruma was in scrolls of Classical Arts of Japan, including JuJutsu. And that your reason for writing at that time that you came from Wrestling was your deep ignorance of JuJutsu and its Scrolls. Even this technique has other names and several versions. The interesting thing is that for some unknown reason, that comment was removed from his channel. I don't know if it was voluntary or not, it doesn't matter now. At that time, I also thanked you for reporting on JuJutsu given the large amount of misinformation that exists , such as that JuJutsu comes from the Chinese ChinNa or that it was invented in India. totally things Legends but not real and Historical facts. Atte. Máximo Arias Sesnei JuJutsu 6th Dan and Shidoshi Ho Bujinkan.
It wouldn't be surprising for two or more cultures to independently arrive at the same technique (or something very similar). People have practiced various grappling styles all over the world since prehistoric times.
Everything is wrestling & everything is judo –